Daily Kos

The Most Important Thing is the Smoke Filled Room

Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 09:49:49 AM PDT

I don't believe in letting political opponents pick your nominee, but I do believe in trying to see things from the adversary's perspective so you know how to win a contest.  (Ironically, in the military, we used to call this "red teaming.")  With that in mind, check out this quote from RedState:

"The important thing is that Hillary wins, but in the most smoke-filled-room way possible."

It's true.  The best scenario for the GOP is a brokered Democratic convention in which Hillary wins based solely on the strength of superdelegates.  (Just as bad would be a brokered convention in which Hillary emerged as the choice of the people, but the superdelegates engineered their way to an Obama victory.  Unlikely as this seems now, the convention isn't for nearly six months, a lifetime in politics.)

I back Obama, but I would vote for Hillary in the general election.  And I can imagine other circumstances in which I could even have supported her in the primaries.  I love the idea of woman winning the presidency, and I can see and respect the genuine passion that many of her supporters have for her.  I suspect she'd be a much better president than she is a candidate.

But all of that said, if the pledged delegates are going Obama's way, and yet the superdelegates swoop in to shift the nomination to Hillary at the convention, it would be a disaster for the Democrats, sucking the momentum out of the movement we've seen this year for the party.  

The flipside is probably less likely, but it's just as true.  If Hillary were to have more legitimate pledged delegates, but the superdelegates were to decide to jump on the Obama bandwagon, it would also reek of the smoke-filled rooms of the past.

Most Obama supporters in the primary would shake hands and vote (maybe even contribute or work) for Hillary in the general.  Most Hillary supporters, I believe, would do the same if the shoe winds up on the other foot.  But the one thing that would derail all of this, and leave a bitter taste in everyone's mouth, is if the choice of the rank and file of the party were to flip the nomination.

Yes, the following is from the Politico but it's a pretty good summary of who the superdelegates are.

Superdelegates grow in number as the party gets more successful: They include all Democratic members of Congress, members of the Democratic National Committee, Democratic governors.

They also are the party warhorses and include “all former Democratic presidents, all former Democratic vice presidents, all former Democratic leaders of the U.S. Senate, all former Democratic speakers of the U.S. House of Representatives and Democratic minority leaders, as applicable, and all former chairs of the Democratic National Committee.”

This means that not only Bill Clinton, but Terry McAuliffe, Hillary Clinton’s campaign chairman, are superdelegates.

These are the people who Bill Clinton has been lobbying according to The Washington Post.  These are the people who might very well pick the Democratic nominee.   Maybe they ought to hear from you as well.

[UPDATE:  I changed the title.  The focus of this is the smoke-filled room, not Hillary or Obama.]

Poll

Who should the superdelegates back?

21%20 votes
6%6 votes
56%52 votes
6%6 votes
8%8 votes

| 92 votes | Vote | Results

Tags: Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, superdelegates, Bill Clinton (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 11 comments

  •  Tips/flames? (9+ / 0-)

    This blog claims to have a list of superdelegates who have and haven't made endorsements.  I can't vouch for the accuracy of the endorsement side, but the list of names looks pretty comprehensive.

    "In war: resolution. In defeat: defiance. In victory: magnanimity. In peace: goodwill." - Churchill

    by William S Martin on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 09:52:37 AM PDT

    •  This Situation Is A Super-Delegates Wet Dream (0+ / 0-)

      The VALUE of thier vote just went up exponentially.

      What can they extract for it?

      A Cabinet appointment?
      Election Support?
      MONEY???

      And this system was set up SPECIFICLY to stop candidates like Senator Obama.

      Anyone who discounts thier value, and the Clinton's expertise and experience in strong-arm politicking is simply naive...

      I SUPPORT Senator Obama, but I've been around politics long enough to see the writing on the wall...

  •  Thom Hartmann was just saying. (5+ / 0-)

    "If Hillary Clinton gets the nomination ONLY because of the super delegates, or ONLY because the delegates from Florida and Michigan get seated, then there's going to be hell to pay, and frankly I don't think that's good for the Democratic party."

    •  he's completely right (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      IndianaDemocrat

      The Obama supporters will revolt.  If that happens, Dean should be fired for poor leadership.  If something underhanded like that happens, we might as well vote for McCain.

      •  How is this Howard Dean's fault? (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        highacidity

        The Party was unable to agree on Michigan and Florida.

        How about Michigan and Florida vote again, in June.

        And those results count.

        Just as soon as the Ossetia war broke out, Dubya canceled a trip to Atlanta . . .

        by Bill White on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 10:23:56 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  If she gets the nom... (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        flagpole

        ...in a way that follows the party's rules, she deserves it.

        If anybody doesn't like the results, whatever those results are,  they can stay and  fight for the party's candidate, and fight for a party rules change.

        If the results are obtained by following the rules, and this leads some "Dems" to sit it out, or do anything other than support the party's candidate, they can spend the next four years looking for peanuts in elephant shit.

        I'm the plowman in the valley - with my face full of mud

        by labradog on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 10:25:16 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Another possible decider ... (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    B P Pgh

    If the superdelegates end up deciding this thing, I do see another option for the SDs deciding which way to go: they could go for the "whoever wins the 'popular vote'" option, as opposed to "Whoever has the lead in legitimate pledged delegates." The Clinton camp has, I think, a very small (~200,000?) lead in the 'popular vote,' although who knows if this will last.

    If, at the convention, one campaign leads in pledged delegates, but the other one leads the popular vote, I would expect all hell to break loose, with each side saying that the category they lead in is the TRUE barometer of the democratic party. In this case, the only scenario I can see working would be a Clinton / Obama ticket.

    IMO, neither pledged delegates nor the popular vote are a good measurement of the sense of the democratic party - caucus states will always have a much lower turnout, and so the popular vote total is weighted against them. And of course, delegate math makes no sense at all.

  •  I disagree (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    labradog

    When Obama entered the race he knew  the playing field--at least I hope he did.  That was one of the obstacles he had to clear

    It was clear then as it should be clear now--that the clintons "control 60-70% of the "supers".  But Obama has a  large minority of them, and their commitment is not set in stone.  Outperform Hillary in the primaries and the supers will swing--he hasn't done that and he won't do it.

    While I can understand the bitching over Fl and MI, and I think the best solution would be a "do over".  

  •  Total Superdelegate endorsements hasn't changed (0+ / 0-)

    much since Jan 9th.  

    CLINTON = now 201, then 184, change +17
    OBAMA   = now 110, then  78, change +32
    EDWARDS = now ???, then  52

    TOTAL   = now 311, then 314, change  -3

    So, there are apparently nearly 500 Superdelegates still out there "holding their fire" until . . . what?

    I have to guess that some of them, especially currently serving congresscritters and governors, are leery of pissing off the Clintons.  Even if Obama wins, Clinton will remain a powerful Senator with the ability (and, perhaps, willingness) to grind some axes.

    Some folks prefer a map and finding their own route. Others need someone to tell them where to go.

    by sxwarren on Wed Feb 06, 2008 at 10:28:17 AM PDT

  •  If the DNC wants Hillary to win in pledged (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    dirtyhippie

    delegates they still have the option of including the results from Florida and Michigan, which might tip her over the edge among pledged delegates, allowing the super delegate solution a bit of cover.

    This still may bear the stench of a smoke-filled-room, but less so, and might be the DNC's best shot at legitimizing a Hillary victory if she doesn't win the delegate count cleanly.

    That said, I'm not convinced that the majority of superdelegates are in love with HRC, and might just as soon put their support behind BHO.  There is already high anti-Hillary sentiment in her own party.  The last thing they will want to do is aggravate that by annointing her in a way that appears undemocratic, especially running against a Republican with strong crossover appeal among Independents and Democrats.  

  •  People love Obama but back rooms want Hillary? (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    flagpole

    The facts don't back you up on that.

    The current count on the popular vote Super Tuesday is 7 million to 7 million, with roughly 200,000 extra for Hillary Clinton. (Getting my figures from this dynamic page in Daily Kos http://www.dailykos.com/... )

    Out of the sixteen primaries yesterday, each candidate won eight.

    There were also five caucuses, all heavily influenced by political insiders, and Obama won all of them. Hillary won not even one.

    I'll be voting for Obama if he wins the nomination, but I wish his supporters would spend more time promoting his virtues and less time in snark about both Clintons that must make Karl Rove truly happy.

Permalink | 11 comments